Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

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scorpioamor
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Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by scorpioamor » Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:22 pm

Thank you in advance!

1988 Scorpio I have owned since about 2006

* ENGINE SYMPTOMS *
Starting - requires several attempts (~5x). Previously started immediately after replacing starter.

Engine rpms - gas or something else fails to keep up when the engine is revved up quickly (medium or 'stomp on the gas'). Does OK if I rpms/throttle are slowly increased.

Engine temp. - seems to not alter condition. Similar condition when engine is cold or warmed up.

Driving - If I try to drive, it will switch between running OK (still no full power when quickly revved) for about a 1/4 mile or so and then loses power and stalls. I have to keep pumping the gas to keep it from stalling.

Additionally - I have been unable to get set the timing. Previously it was pinging under heavy load. I have a timing gun and have been unable to see the mark on the crank. I just have it set based on how it runs best with current problems.

Recent engine problem history - Prior to the current engine power issue, when it also ran about the same, I would simply unplug the BAP sensor and it sometimes ran better connected and when it started acting up I plugged it back in and it ran better being connected. I replaced the BAP sensor and problems went away until now. Now it does not seem to make a difference now when plugged in or unplugged. RPM's increase slightly when BAP is plugged in.

Disconnected hose - A small hose has been disconnected for over a decade
Link to photo: https://photos.app.goo.gl/x1DPfvSmJydmdhmU9

* ENGINE REPAIR HISTORY *
Replacements (all new):
BAP/MAP sensor
Intake Manifold Temperature Sensor
Fuel injectors
Distributor cap
Distributor rotor
Ignition coil
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
Fuel pressure regulator
Air filter (customized an oil/foam filter)
Battery
Starter
Radiator
Thermostat

* INSPECTION *
I checked and wiggled or disconnected then reconnected most sensor connections
(I'm guessing these next are not causal related, just FYI)
Ignition wires were replaced several years ago and still seem to be in good condition
Spark plugs were replaced about 2 years ago

* OBD1 CODES *
From (accurate codes?) https://www.troublecodes.net/ford/?amp

KOEO (Key-ON/Engine-OFF)
22 - MAP (vacuum) or BARO signal out of range – MAP

KOER (Key-ON/Engine-Running)
13 - ISC did not respond properly (extends to touch throttle then retracts for KOEO) – ISC
21 - Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor out of range – ECT
33 - ALL – EGR did not open/ respond during test or if memory code, did not open intermittently – EVP EVR PFE
41 - System lean – Fuel control
77 - System did not receive “goose” test – see TESTS
Last edited by scorpioamor on Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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andyofcolumbusmerkur
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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by andyofcolumbusmerkur » Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:56 pm

I was starting to think clogged cat or old fuel. But now thinking bad computer. But I'm just guessing.
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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by brokencase » Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:01 pm

First off get ECT fixed. Also I am concerned about barometric sensor...but fix ECT first...they seem to go on every Scorpio that I have owned.
When ECT fails the symptom is hesitation upon application of throttle...until it warms up.

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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by scorpioamor » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:50 pm

Thanks for the responses.
Last year I replace the ECT and BAP/MAP sensors.
Could they have gone bad that quickly?

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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by andyofcolumbusmerkur » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:04 am

scorpioamor wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:50 pm
Thanks for the responses.
Last year I replace the ECT and BAP/MAP sensors.
Could they have gone bad that quickly?
If they are low cost replacements then yes. If they are original Motorcraft I wouldn't expect them to be bad. Unless there was an underlying problem to begin with, which caused the original and replacements to go bad.
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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by john keefe » Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:27 pm

Swap in as many OE Ford parts as you can, even used.

Years ago, I bought a nice, used '89 XR from a lady in SF for $250. It was parked for a while, ran like crap if/when it even started, and was collecting parking tickets. It had been in and out of her local Honda repair shop several times trying to fix it, and they ultimately told her it had a blown head gasket. They wanted some absurd cost to replace it. She just wanted to get rid of it and cover the costs of the tickets. I got it started, drove it around the block, and while it wasn't blowing any serious smoke/steam, it ran like crap.

I towed it home, bought a Motorcraft head gasket, expecting to find some serious internal issues to have to clean up. Before doing a compression test, for kicks I decided to look at the TFI. Looked like the original, but when I took it off, it had "Made in Hong Kong" stamped on the backside. Hmm... turned out that almost every sensor and the BAP had been replaced by that Honda shop with crap knock-offs made in Hong Kong or China. Replaced them all with used Motorcraft stuff I had from other XR's, reset the timing, etc., and it ran fine. My daughter drove it to school for a year or so before I sold it to one of my son's friends. Never had to replace the head gasket.

If there's a lesson, its to use Motorcraft sensors and actuators ONLY.

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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by brokencase » Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:08 pm

scorpioamor wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:50 pm
Thanks for the responses.
Last year I replace the ECT and BAP/MAP sensors.
Could they have gone bad that quickly?
Possibly, but your EECIV codes are telling you it is bad. It means that the sensor OR THE WIRES/CONNECTORS GOING TO IT are bad.

After you replace ECT and clear the codes then you should drive it around for a while to be certain that the code does not come back.
If it does then it means that there is a connector or wiring issue.

Not a big fan of "Swap in as many OE Ford parts as you can". Troubleshoot and diagnose. However agree with general improved quality with Ford parts with the exception of, Vehicle Speed Sensor, Temp Gauge Sensor, see my post regarding workarounds for these items..

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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by andyofcolumbusmerkur » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:48 am

What about carbon clogged EGR or IACV?
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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by Ed Lijewski » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:47 pm

Many aftermarket parts manufacturers produce quality engine control units, e.g, Wells, Cardone, Standard, Echlin and others. The argument to only buy Ford sensors is baseless.

YMMV
Last edited by Ed Lijewski on Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by john keefe » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:27 pm

I don't know about completely baseless. Certainly, these days the options are pretty reliable (except for DCJ components), and likely one or two of the major brands probably may have been (or bought out, absorbed) the original manufacturers contracted by Ford. But, its electronics, and even OE stuff failed right out of the box.

The knock-off industry is huge, and even those major aftermarket parts manufacturers get copied. If you're buying from a major chain which actually does carry those brands, great. If you're buying off eBay or such, you don't know until you have it in hand. And, of course, "opened" or used electrical components are not usually returnable.

My point was that if you've got or can obtain used, "known good" OE parts, especially for diagnostics, and don't have the time, experience or money to play hit or miss with aftermarket stuff, then absolutely start with the OE stuff. Perhaps I could have clarified that better, rather than admonishing "only."

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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by andyofcolumbusmerkur » Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:40 pm

Throwing parts at a car like an Audi S6 does not make sense. Throwing parts at a Merkur sometimes makes sense. It helps when engine out is not required. Also helps when you have another identical make and model parked right next to it. :D
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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by Bob Weir » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:45 pm

scorpio amore

Welcome to "back to basics". 88 or 89, it uses a basic EEC controlling a basic v6. No complicated electronics. You've been making the parts suppliers very happy. Now it's time too find the problem rather than just throwing parts at it. Fortunately, you know what a code scanner is and how to understand it.

However, I'm going to "LECTURE" you about using a VOLTMETER.
Other than a few components, everything in the Merkur requires "SYSTEM VOLTAGE" Aka "Sys-V"."
Don't be concerned with ohms Ω, especially continuity. That's not going to tell you if the wire is capable of transmitting Sys-V. However, Ω is necessary for testing components.
Go to battery and get it's V, this is Sys-V. Other than ≤ 1 V drop, suspect the WIRING.
Check the grounds GND.
The green stuff on wires is what WAS wire. Replace the wire!
Remember; Short to GND, Open or Hi Resistance prevents Sys-V to get to component.
Get an "Electrical & Vacuum Trouble Shooting Manual" either book or CD.
Start measuring Sys-V at the components that have fault codes.
Clean up your wiring harness and connectors. Clean & use dielectric grease on all connectors.
Either solder & shrink wrap connections or use heat shrinking connectors containing solder.

ECT To see what your wiring might look like, go here
http://forum.merkurclub.net/forum/viewt ... or#p294166

PARTS
Always trust our sponsors. They've been supplying Merkur parts for more than 30 yrs and have the info to help you get the right part and how to install it. Be wary of the big box stores, many don't carry the correct part because their catalogs are incorrect. Although RockAuto appears to be reliable.

After you read this, go to your Profile [drop down menu on your name after you signed in] and tell us something about yourself, especially city & state.

Enjoy the Scorpio. It's a relatively trouble free car once you have it sorted. My daughter drove one for 5 yrs commuting 1 hr into Philadelphia. Summers thru winters, it always started and ran without issues. My Burgundy one was challenging until I devoted the time to measure Sys-V on troublesome components. My learning included a rare toasted EEC.

Bob

Bob

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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by andyofcolumbusmerkur » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:59 am

Time for Mr. Pokey
Image
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Re: Engine Problems - starting, stalling, no power when revved

Post by Ed Lijewski » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:52 pm

Fortunately you weren't referring to Assman the Proctologist...

YMMV
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