Alternate Alternator Upgrade - Nissan/Infiniti

[Ed Lijewski]

Nice find and post.

Manual XR idle setting is 750 rpm, automatic is 900 rpm. My XRs are automatics.

I notice the graph on the bottom reads Alternator RPMs. Seems a strange mistake if the author meant Engine RPMs.

YMMV

[Ed Lijewski]

On taking a second look, that graph raises questions. It shows the 3G 95 amp alternator putting out 0 amps at idle.

I don't think I trust the chart. (Re the 3G 95 amp output at least.)


YMMV

[brokencase]

Again Ed, It's hard to be specific without an actual output curve of the Bosch unit. But we can come away with some generalizations..

For example below is another chart (generic) regarding how temperature impacts alternator performance. Which is quite surprising.
Came from here..https://www.maniacelectricmotors.com/ellovsalpe.html

BTW, The prior chart came from the bronco forum where the XR4ti guys got their inspiration for the 3g conversion.

I'm told that the Bosch unit also does not like the heat which is why folks came up with the external regulator conversion.

In any case, the reason I point out this chart is because it further demonstrates how even a slight change in idle can impact the output of the alternator.

alt_temp.jpg (86.52 KiB) Viewed 3784 times

[brokencase]

BTW - here is another good website that has a good discussion on alternators...he talks about idle performance.
http://www.billavista.com/tech/Articles ... erformance

But check out his documentation library... Lots of good stuff! Parts catalogs, Welding manuals, Military vehicle manuals..
http://www.billavista.com/tech/PDF_Index/index.html

And his other tech articles...
http://www.billavista.com/tech/index.html

[DPDISXR4Ti]

I searched trying to find anything specific on the 110Amp Nissan alternator and came up empty. I think they used both Hitachi and Mitsubishi as suppliers IIRC. In general though, there was pretty high praise about the alternators. I recall reading one guy saying when he junked his car with 286K miles it still had the original alternator.

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Interesting stuff. I remember watching some show (motorweek?) about newer cars and the extreme demands people put on their electrical systems these days compared to yesteryear. Some soccer mom would start the new vehicle in freezing weather and drive for 2 minutes from point a to point b. The whole time using the headlights, wipers, defrost, blower motor, radio etc. Then park, come back and start the process over and over again. Like running errands or Christmas shopping. No highway driving just going around a shopping center or in town from plaza to plaza. It talked about how strong the charging systems are on newer vehicles (still this was maybe 20 years ago) and how they could handle this type of driver. What are the parameters Ford used in the 80's? I would assume they have a simple grasp of mathematics and could change the size of the alternator pulley if needed. I'd guess they would figure an average driving time of 10 minutes at least, with a conservative average rpm and above average electrical load as variables. Also the newer vehicle charging systems detect an electrical load and don't necessarily run at full tilt all the time. So they can get away with these outlier type situations while getting good fuel economy.

[Ed Lijewski]

Heat does affect alternators and also starters which why both XRs and Scorpios have OEM heat shields offering protection from exhaust pipe heat.

But note the the Scorpio alternator mounts low on the block benefitting from continuous cooling during vehicle motion air flow while the XR alternator sits high on the block with mechanical air flow benefit only when the cooling fan(s) are running.

So one would think XR alternator performance could be compromised by heat more than Scorpio alternators would be. I've posted how my XR's alternator consistently produces expected levels of voltage under typical usage scenarios, idling included.

YMMV

[brokencase]

<snip>
It talked about how strong the charging systems are on newer vehicles (still this was maybe 20 years ago) and how they could handle this type of driver. What are the parameters Ford used in the 80's? I would assume they have a simple grasp of mathematics and could change the size of the alternator pulley if needed. I'd guess they would figure an average driving time of 10 minutes at least, with a conservative average rpm and above average electrical load as variables. Also the newer vehicle charging systems detect an electrical load and don't necessarily run at full tilt all the time. So they can get away with these outlier type situations while getting good fuel economy.

Like I said, I don't think there is a difference in the electrical demand between a 1988 Mustang that came with a 75 Amp alternator and the 1995 Mustang with a 150 amp alternator. I just think it is a case where higher output alternators became available and were cost effective.
The industry as a whole probably realized that reliability for the customer would also increase. Less burden on the battery, battery last longer, like the use case you mentioned.

[DPDISXR4Ti]

I recently picked up a couple of those cheap digital voltage gauges that go in the cigarette light socket. Driving the Scorpio the other day, it registered around 13.7V as you'd expect once underway. On the way home, about half-way there I needed to turn the headlights on. Very surprised to see the voltage in the 12.6V neighborhood while the headlights were on.

I'm thinking I need to stop researching the idea of a 4L engine swap and get the Nissan alternator in there!

[brokencase]

Very surprised to see the voltage in the 12.6V neighborhood while the headlights were on.
I'm thinking I need to stop researching the idea of a 4L engine swap and get the Nissan alternator in there!

Yea, that and then turn on the A/C and get stuck in traffic somewhere...it will drop below 12v.

Pretty happy with the Titan alternator swap.

[Ed Lijewski]

Mr. Gasket saves me some hassle....

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/mr- ... 7CL3*15576

Ordered online last night and picked it up this evening. It will work. It needs a hole drilled and to be cut down. $12 & change (25% discount)
Easier than welding...

Looks like some rainy afternoons over the 4th break. Should have this alternator conversion wrapped up and some other things like...
O2 sensor, I bought a NOS replacement off of ebay a while back for $8. There is one at rock auto right now for $2.77!
Alternate Front ABS sensors
Sunroof seal replacement (located source from UK, Cost was around $70) I'll start a new thread about this.

Several months ago as part of a Rock Auto order I included a new Denso O2 sensor, under $15 IIRC. I selected the Denso among other manufacturers thinking Japanese quality...

I also ordered the O2 sensor wrench tool.

Lemme tell ya', that tool is fantastic!

Shortly after installing it on my '89 (several short trips over 2+ weeks or so) after the EEC went into closed loop engine performance on acceleration became diminished. The car couldn't keep up with traffic from a stop, and once from a stop going up a steep hill it couldn't make more than 20/25 mph.

Long story short re diagnosis, I decided to take out the Denso and install a used OEM sensor taken from my '88 Scorpio years ago which was still among my new and used parts stash.

Engine performance returned to normal without a hitch or hint of how it worked with the new Denso unit.

So I wonder if you installed your new O2 sensor, and if you used the R&R tool for it, and if the sensor worked well (what brand?).

YMMV

[andyofcolumbusmerkur]

Japanese company based in Japan, but I bet the part was made in China. You guys already know my opinion on "cheapest on the internet" stuff.

[john keefe]

Years ago, I bought a white '89 XR, low mileage that was collecting parking tickets in SF. The highly respected "Honda" shop couldn't get it to run right, and suspected a blown head gasket, maybe a cracked head. The owner had already spent over $2K with this shop trying to fix the original problem that started after a tune-up, and now they were quoting her another $2500 for a new head. She just wanted $250.00 to pay off the tickets. Offered her more, but by then she was fed up with the XR experiment, and said, "It's your problem now."

I started it up, ran rough, a little smoke (black, not white), but good enough to drive the 25miles home. Started with the TFI module, pulled it off and on the underside and it read, "Made in Taiwan." Swapped in a used one from my stockpile, and it ran a little better. Didn't idle well, so I checked out the IAC... again, made in Taiwan. Ended up this "reputable" shop had shotgunned/guessed at whatever the original problem was by swapping out every sensor and actuator and replacing them all with cheap "Made in Taiwan" junk. Replaced them all with used Motorcraft components, and the car ran great afterwards, and had no problem passing smog (back then, the owner would have to get it smogged 60 days before sale, or the buyer had to get it done withing 30 days). Car was an automatic with nice raven black leather, upgraded suspension, and other good stuff. Eventually sold it to one of my son's buddies who really, really wanted it.

[Ed Lijewski]

Japanese company based in Japan, but I bet the part was made in China. You guys already know my opinion on "cheapest on the internet" stuff.

The Japanese learned how to increase quality, and market share, from an American, W. Edwards Deming:

"Japan

In 1947, Deming was involved in early planning for the 1951 Japanese Census. The Allied powers were occupying Japan, and he was asked by the United States Department of the Army to assist with the census. He was brought over at the behest of General Douglas MacArthur, who grew frustrated at being unable to complete so much as a phone call without the line going dead due to Japan's shattered postwar economy. While in Japan, his expertise in quality-control techniques, combined with his involvement in Japanese society, brought him an invitation from the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers (JUSE).[13]

JUSE members had studied Shewhart's techniques, and as part of Japan's reconstruction efforts, they sought an expert to teach statistical control. From June–August 1950, Deming trained hundreds of engineers, managers, and scholars in SPC and concepts of quality. He also conducted at least one session for top management (including top Japanese industrialists of the likes of Akio Morita, the cofounder of Sony Corp.)[19] Deming's message to Japan's chief executives was that improving quality would reduce expenses, while increasing productivity and market share.[10] Perhaps the best known of these management lectures was delivered at the Mt. Hakone Conference Center in August 1950.

A number of Japanese manufacturers applied his techniques widely and experienced heretofore unheard-of levels of quality and productivity. The improved quality combined with the lowered cost created new international demand for Japanese products.

Deming declined to receive royalties from the transcripts of his 1950 lectures, so JUSE's board of directors established the Deming Prize (December 1950) to repay him for his friendship and kindness.[19] Within Japan, the Deming Prize continues to exert considerable influence on the disciplines of quality control and quality management.[20]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

Ironically, U.S. manufacturers never fully appreciated or adopted his methods. You know the result.

I doubt successful Japanese manufacturers have abandoned Deming's advice.

I'd bet Mazda applies it.

YMMV

[brokencase]

So I wonder if you installed your new O2 sensor, and if you used the R&R tool for it, and if the sensor worked well (what brand?).

I bought a NOS Bosch O2 sensor. The wires were too short so I spliced in the wires from the old sensor.

Removal was difficult. The way I did this was I used several extensions on the ratchet wrench to reach down from the engine bay.

3/8" extensions twist too much. So changed to 1/2" wrench and extensions with a 3/8" adapter.

I have two different O2 sensor sockets, both from Harbor Freight. One was a "crow's foot" style, the other was a large socket style with the slot down the side to clear the wire. I found it was difficult to keep the "crows foot" unit on the sensor. So I finally got it off with the "socket with the slot".

No issues with the new sensor installed.