I am out of ideas

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my8950
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by my8950 »

Rainbow83 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 8:29 am Good news, everyone! It drives! I took the car around the neighborhood yesterday. I suspect that the issues preventing the car from starting were several. First, I don't think I've been using enough startung fluid. I had my brother spray it, and he put half the damn can in there and that seemed to help. Second, I suspect that because I was spraying it in at the throttle, and I had that hose between the turbo and the throttle off, the VAM wasn't sucking any air through and registering airflow, so I wonder if maybe that was causing issues? I still haven't made an adapter to do that compression test, but it seems to be starting up and firing fine now, so maybe I won't.
Half a can of starting fluid? I'm surprised the engine is still in one piece.
Maybe instead of trying starting fluid, use gasoline in a small container.
You are correct, the VAM is not in the circuit and not registering properly, so that will also cause issues.
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Chesterfield »

my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am

Half a can of starting fluid? I'm surprised the engine is still in one piece.
Maybe instead of trying starting fluid, use gasoline in a small container.
You are correct, the VAM is not in the circuit and not registering properly, so that will also cause issues.

I highly recommend lacquer thinner instead of gasoline.

1. Less explosive
2. Evaporates if you use to much
3. Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later.


win/win/win
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by my8950 »

Chesterfield wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:13 am
my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am

Half a can of starting fluid? I'm surprised the engine is still in one piece.
Maybe instead of trying starting fluid, use gasoline in a small container.
You are correct, the VAM is not in the circuit and not registering properly, so that will also cause issues.

I highly recommend lacquer thinner instead of gasoline.

1. Less explosive
2. Evaporates if you use to much
3. Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later.


win/win/win
I don't think he is going to have an issue going stale if he is pouring gasoline into the throttle body to get the engine to start.
I hope you aren't filling your fuel tank with laquer thinner to leave in the fuel tank for a year.
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Chesterfield »

Chesterfield wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:13 am I highly recommend lacquer thinner instead of gasoline.
1. Less explosive
2. Evaporates if you use to much
3. Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later.
win/win/win
my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:09 pm I don't think he is going to have an issue going stale if he is pouring gasoline into the throttle body to get the engine to start.
"Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later."
my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am I hope you aren't filling your fuel tank with laquer thinner to leave in the fuel tank for a year.
You're right, I should have been more clear. I recommend dribbling lacquer thinner into the vacuum hose fitting at the top of the upper plenum instead if gasoline into the throttle body. Less messy, less things things to go wrong.

The big advantage is, if the car is not starting, then lacquer thinner evaporates while gasoline "floods" the car.

(Then you end up having to pull the plugs, dry them off, crank the motor over, battery goes dead, have to bring the battery into the garage, can't find the battery charger, etc. etc. etc.)
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reddy2300
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by reddy2300 »

Chesterfield wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:27 pm
Chesterfield wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:13 am I highly recommend lacquer thinner instead of gasoline.
1. Less explosive
2. Evaporates if you use to much
3. Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later.
win/win/win
my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:09 pm I don't think he is going to have an issue going stale if he is pouring gasoline into the throttle body to get the engine to start.
"Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later."
my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am I hope you aren't filling your fuel tank with laquer thinner to leave in the fuel tank for a year.
You're right, I should have been more clear. I recommend dribbling lacquer thinner into the vacuum hose fitting at the top of the upper plenum instead if gasoline into the throttle body. Less messy, less things things to go wrong.

The big advantage is, if the car is not starting, then lacquer thinner evaporates while gasoline "floods" the car.

(Then you end up having to pull the plugs, dry them off, crank the motor over, battery goes dead, have to bring the battery into the garage, can't find the battery charger, etc. etc. etc.)
Lacquer thinner is a VERY bad idea in an automotive/engine environment because it DISSOLVES PLASTIC. DO NOT USE LACQUER THINNER TO TRY TO START YOUR CAR! Don't do it.

Who cares if it goes stale in a year? No one. Get some new gas.

Additionally, "starting fluid" (especially 'half a can') has been known to clean the oil off of cylinder walls and that ends up destroying pistons and rings. Use it VERY sparingly.
1987 XR4ti--Mustang Cobra 5.0/T5 transmission, AFR heads, fake BBS wheels, Koni Yellows, Rapido sway bars, poly/aluminum bushes, Eurolights, Sierra rear/Focus front discs,
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andyofcolumbusmerkur
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by andyofcolumbusmerkur »

Chesterfield wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 1:27 pm
Chesterfield wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 11:13 am I highly recommend lacquer thinner instead of gasoline.
1. Less explosive
2. Evaporates if you use to much
3. Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later.
win/win/win
my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 12:09 pm I don't think he is going to have an issue going stale if he is pouring gasoline into the throttle body to get the engine to start.
"Does not go stale if you are still working on the car a year later."
my8950 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 10:02 am I hope you aren't filling your fuel tank with laquer thinner to leave in the fuel tank for a year.
You're right, I should have been more clear. I recommend dribbling lacquer thinner into the vacuum hose fitting at the top of the upper plenum instead if gasoline into the throttle body. Less messy, less things things to go wrong.

The big advantage is, if the car is not starting, then lacquer thinner evaporates while gasoline "floods" the car.

(Then you end up having to pull the plugs, dry them off, crank the motor over, battery goes dead, have to bring the battery into the garage, can't find the battery charger, etc. etc. etc.)
Don't forget 10mm socket is missing, run out of beer, and it starts raining.
The best way to keep your Kia from being stolen is to not have a Kia.
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Ed Lijewski »

If lacquer thinner was available in an aerosol spray can I'd use it as starting fluid as its contents are very volatile, but dribbling it in likely is less effective than just spraying in standard Starting Fluid whose contents are volatile.

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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Rainbow83 »

Well, regardless of whether or not it's a good idea, I don't think I'll be putting lacquer thinner in the car anytime soon as now that it's running I plan to drive it and, if it's in the stars, keep it that way, haha
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andyofcolumbusmerkur
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by andyofcolumbusmerkur »

I've never heard about this lacquer thinner trick before, sounds pretty old school. I would imagine most types of starting fluid would be pretty potent and could melt some plastic, damage a sensor, or harm paint. It's usually fine to see if an engine will run using some type of spray but might be a bad idea to try to actually keep it running off carb spray. I like to use the red can of CRC carb spray. If I get an old chainsaw for instance, and it feels like it has compression I will buy it if it is a good deal. I like to spray a shot of WD-40 in the spark plug hole, and give it a few pulls. If it's a really old unknown condition engine, like an old mini bike engine, I will let that soak awhile before trying to spin the engine. Then a good shot of crc, put the plug back in, and see if I can get it to pop. A lot of times a little shot of crc behind the air filter will get something to start, and you avoid pulling the pull cord until your arm falls off.
The best way to keep your Kia from being stolen is to not have a Kia.
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Chesterfield »

Not meaning to be argumentative, I just want to help the original poster get his car started. But there is no sense in perpetuating bad info (the internet lives forever).
reddy2300 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:36 pm Lacquer thinner is a VERY bad idea in an automotive/engine environment because it DISSOLVES PLASTIC. DO NOT USE LACQUER THINNER TO TRY TO START YOUR CAR! Don't do it.
There is no plastic between the top of the plenum and the cylinders.
reddy2300 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:36 pm Who cares if it goes stale in a year? No one. Get some new gas.
Our local motorcycle expert shop, will not work on motorcycles if the gas is more than two weeks old. They have learned their lesson. I simply prefer to reach into the shelf on my garage, and grab lacquer thinner for a car that won't start, rather than driving truck down to the gas station and back. If someone prefers to drive to the gas station, that's fine with me.
reddy2300 wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:36 pm Additionally, "starting fluid" (especially 'half a can') has been known to clean the oil off of cylinder walls and that ends up destroying pistons and rings. Use it VERY sparingly.
Olden Daze. Virtually all "starting fluid" you buy now, says "Contains upper cylinder lubricant" on the label.
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Chesterfield »

andyofcolumbusmerkur wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:03 am I've never heard about this lacquer thinner trick before, sounds pretty old school. I would imagine most types of starting fluid would be pretty potent and could melt some plastic, damage a sensor, or harm paint. It's usually fine to see if an engine will run using some type of spray but might be a bad idea to try to actually keep it running off carb spray. I like to use the red can of CRC carb spray. If I get an old chainsaw for instance, and it feels like it has compression I will buy it if it is a good deal. I like to spray a shot of WD-40 in the spark plug hole, and give it a few pulls. If it's a really old unknown condition engine, like an old mini bike engine, I will let that soak awhile before trying to spin the engine. Then a good shot of crc, put the plug back in, and see if I can get it to pop. A lot of times a little shot of crc behind the air filter will get something to start, and you avoid pulling the pull cord until your arm falls off.
By the way, what you call the "lacquer thinner trick" was revealed to me by a tow truck driver. Those guys get more crap cars running than every Merkur owner combined. :cheers
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Rainbow83 »

Chesterfield wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:09 pm Not meaning to be argumentative, I just want to help the original poster get his car started. But there is no sense in perpetuating bad info (the internet lives forever).
Just to be clear, the car does run now.

Also, "half a can" was a hyperbole. It was simply a lot more than I myself would have used.
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by reddy2300 »

Chesterfield wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 1:11 pm
andyofcolumbusmerkur wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 10:03 am I've never heard about this lacquer thinner trick before, sounds pretty old school. I would imagine most types of starting fluid would be pretty potent and could melt some plastic, damage a sensor, or harm paint. It's usually fine to see if an engine will run using some type of spray but might be a bad idea to try to actually keep it running off carb spray. I like to use the red can of CRC carb spray. If I get an old chainsaw for instance, and it feels like it has compression I will buy it if it is a good deal. I like to spray a shot of WD-40 in the spark plug hole, and give it a few pulls. If it's a really old unknown condition engine, like an old mini bike engine, I will let that soak awhile before trying to spin the engine. Then a good shot of crc, put the plug back in, and see if I can get it to pop. A lot of times a little shot of crc behind the air filter will get something to start, and you avoid pulling the pull cord until your arm falls off.
By the way, what you call the "lacquer thinner trick" was revealed to me by a tow truck driver. Those guys get more crap cars running than every Merkur owner combined. :cheers
Lacquer thinner in place of gasoline is still a REALLY STUPID IDEA. Don't do it. (Bad info/the internet lives forever.)

I don't care if "a tow truck driver" told you. I guess you'd jump off a bridge if a tow truck driver told you to?
1987 XR4ti--Mustang Cobra 5.0/T5 transmission, AFR heads, fake BBS wheels, Koni Yellows, Rapido sway bars, poly/aluminum bushes, Eurolights, Sierra rear/Focus front discs,
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Chesterfield »

Rainbow83 wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:10 pm
Just to be clear, the car does run now.

Also, "half a can" was a hyperbole. It was simply a lot more than I myself would have used.
Very cool! Maybe let everyone know what you figured out.

Sometimes I swear that plugging and unplugging the Spout connector makes it start, like some kind of Karmann Witchcraft.*


* also hyperbole
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Re: I am out of ideas

Post by Rainbow83 »

Chesterfield wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:17 pm Very cool! Maybe let everyone know what you figured out.

Sometimes I swear that plugging and unplugging the Spout connector makes it start, like some kind of Karmann Witchcraft.*

* also hyperbole
Yeah, I think it was the fact that the VAM wasn't getting any airflow because of how I had the hose from the turbo disconnected to allow me to put the starting fluid in at the throttle. So like, maybe because the computer wasn't "seeing" any airflow it wasn't putting fuel in? I honestly am not really sure. The injectors lit up the noid light and mades clicking noises even before though, so I would think it was getting fuel anyway. Maybe just not enough? As I said, I'm not really sure. But now it starts right up, so... eh?
Alex
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