Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

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adamcossie
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Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by adamcossie »

I decided to rip off the head to do a little bit of this and that to the 88 since it’s parked in the garage for winter. New car to me. I have gutted and polished the intakes , am currently polishing the head and gasket matching. After doing a little research I’ve decided to pep up the car a bit at this time. I have never messed with any tuning and have little experience with turbo selection. I will like to add a pimpx , bopart cam while the head is off ( thinking 1.5). I have a precision turbo from about 8 years ago when I was originally in the merk game ( ar60 Inlet housing , ar63 exhaust ). Doing this work I’m sure I will also need to upgrade the injectors and add an adjustable cam gear to ensure best use from the cam. At the same time doing head studs for future sake. Any advice on these parts would be dope. I don’t think I can afford to do it all at once. It will be a daily driver for my summer car. Stock bottom end for now.

Anybody have a link to the injectors I would need? ( I did a little research and it looks like the green tops are a good upgrade. Or the longer Siemens taller injectors from stinger ? Do these fit with a little modification to the stock fuel rail?

Would that turbo be too big for the car?

Would the stock fuel pump support a setup like this?

Which head gasket type and brand should I be using?

Anyone have experience with bo-ports re-ground cams as compared to new ones?

Any advice or suggestions would be awesome. Cheers.
john keefe
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by john keefe »

All good questions, and starting points for mod's. Been a while since I've played with the 2.3L, but I remember some stuff... though I'm not any kind of 2.3L authority around here.

Don't know about the A/R's of the turbo and compressor (IIRC it sounds like its more the TBird TC application?). But, gutting the intake is a good solution IF you take advantage of the extra potential mass flow by working with larger valves, and 3" exhaust; air-in/air-out. Otherwise you're losing velocity to fill the cylinders quickly, which is a big plus for stock or slightly modified motors. You have to offset for the lost velocity somewhere.

Cams are a complex subject. Some people swear by Bo-Port's grinds and/or the cams BAT used to offer, but like anything else it has to fit your mods. In the 5.0L crowd, people often do/did a lot of the "advertised" mods and expected a summation of HP/TQ increases, but never realize them... it all depends on what else you've done (or not done) with the engine. A good race-engine builder will spec a cam's lift/duration/timing to match what else has been done to the motor, not just because it's the "hot" cam somebody else is doing well with it. If you're not that other guy's builder, you don't know for sure what's working. Even if you know what should work with your combos, sometimes it just doesn't. People have literally made noticeable seat-of-the-pants improvements just by swapping in a Ranger-roller (less frictional power losses, slight changes to the duration and lift, IIRC).

Until you start investing some real $$$ (and have some $$$ to waste on mistakes), you're mostly just shifting your power band up or down with your mods. Or just creating a "wash" (trade-off). And if you do get some of that high-end bang, remember that some people have been disappointed at the loss of drivability.

A good IC along the way, and you have various discussions about Cossie vs. Isuzu vs. Volvo, etc., etc. AND, there are some very nice Cossie combinations of RS500 style radiator/IC offered by at least one excellent vendor here. Log or equal length tubular headers are another option, and debate.

To handle the needed fuel flow for the new mass/velocity you're trying to move, you'll need one of the Walbro pumps (typically the larger 250),
FelPro head gasket was usually the go-to. Cossie 2.0L solved their head gasket issues by going with a copper gasket (IIRC those heads were relieved for a ring to seal the cylinder), but I don't know at what point with these 2.3L motors that becomes needed.

Maybe at this point, if you haven't already, just to start searching the forums and archives for the relevant topics to refresh your earlier ideas, e.g., "Bo-port." I know there are a couple decades of ideas, and reports about the various upgrades people have done, toyed with, or thought through, or bench-raced here.

TurboFord.org used to be a decent resource of ideas, but it eventually turned into a lot of BS, name-calling, people saying this or that worked without substantiating it, then getting in arguments. If you have the patience, you might try those archives, but you'll get real-world info here at MCA without all the bickering.

Another good source to refresh your memory, if you can find it, would be old articles in Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords Magazine, titled or interviews with "Tiny Avenger." At least that will give you some idea of HP possibilities with the, back-then desirable upgrades.
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by thesameguy »

I like everything there, and it cannot be over-stressed how important a competent intercooler is. IMO, you can't do anything useful without that component. An intercooler should be the second improvement, right after a good exhaust system.

I would also really encourage you to make incremental improvements rather than throw the kitchen sink (or wallet) at the problem unless your knowledge base and bank account are both very deep. "I bolted all this crap on and can't get the car to run right, selling cheap" stories you find here and elsewhere are innumerable.

Like John said, don't assume buying Part A and B will get you A+B, so that's another reason to move slowly. See what the problem is, find a solution, then install it. When it comes to tractor motors... I mean Lima motors, you're dealing with a 50+ year old design and that should be taken into account. It's a real task to build a good port injected, turbocharged, 2v/cyl, iron head motor... a lot of individual challenges and IMO quite a few tradeoffs along the way. It's a good idea to really nail down whether you're trying to build a fun street car, a track car, or a drag car. Each approach will encompass various nuance.

Edit: It's tough to build a MODERN FEELING motor. You can DEFINITELY build a super-torquey-low-revving-truck-motor or a peaky-af-high-revving-rally-car-motor. :D
adamcossie
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by adamcossie »

Thanks guys. Wicked right ups there. I forgot to mention that I do plan an inter cooling the unit. Just haven’t searched around for a rad combo yet. The car ran fine when I took it apart. I wasn’t planning on doing much to it but figured that now would be a good time to do so. I forgot about the ranger cam upgrade. I will def look into that. I plan on keeping this car for quite some time so I don’t mind spending the money to a point lol. I also agree that a cam choice is harder than blindly picking one off the shelf. I’ll put more research into the numbers of the cams I’m looking at.
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by thesameguy »

I completely understand the desire to not replicate work, but I would really consider not messing with the head right now. The head work will probably only be essential (if even desirable) once you've got a couple grand (!!!) spent elsewhere.... so unless your budget for this is in the $3k to $4k range, I'd argue you have bigger fish to fry. And, really, you might find you don't even get to the point that's relevant... the power output you can get to with bolt-ons makes a 2900lb car feel PDQ... and at that point you're way past what's safe with 30 year old stock brakes and suspension, so be prepared to throw some cheddar that way.
adamcossie
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by adamcossie »

Too late to not mess with the head. I’m about 75% polishing it lol. I have come to the conclusion that doing all of the bits I want to do are not feasible cost wise right meow. I will be upgrading brakes and susp in the future. Long build coming up. So having ported and polished Th head, gutting and polishing the intakes , I feel the urge to focus on any sort of cam upgrade to be almost done with airflow aspect of the engine. I Haven’t too much effort into intercooler and rad combos. Any opinions on current sellers of said units ? Cheers
thesameguy
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by thesameguy »

No harm in porting & polishing, but if it's $1 on a cam or $1 on an intercooler/exhaust/brakes/suspension/stage0/fuel pump/exhaust manifold even standard "big VAM mod" I would not choose cam.

It's not tough to install a cam after the head is on the motor... I wouldn't rush that. The stock cam is good for an easy +75hp. Get that 75hp before you deal with the cam IMO.

If you're dead set on the cam. the only thing I would consider junkyarding a Ranger cam set up. It's cheap, probably not a functional upgrade, put the $$$ elsewhere. :)
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by merkurdriver »

The walbro fuel pump upgrade before any other fuel system upgrades. The car will be happy with the walbro at stock power levels and big power levels, so it should be near the top of the list. It won't 'hurt' anything if you do it right now, and you're prepping for the support of more power in the future.
adamcossie
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by adamcossie »

Thanks for the input guys. I’m off the cam train for the time being. Intercooler does make more sense really. Not sure if I’ll try to find a ranger cam just yet either. Would like to do a bit more research on that also. I’m thinking I’ll do the fuel pump upgrade , intercooler and possible pimpx to get rid of that massive vam. Will keep you posted
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by my8950 »

If it's all apart, I would go with the Ranger cam and rockers. It's easy and can be had for about $100 for the set.
Although I've never done it either, I want to, and have all the stuff. Just never took a head off and want to keep driving the car.
I'm trying to figure a way to do the cam without removing the head.
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by thesameguy »

No need to remove the head to replace the cam... It's done easily in an afternoon.

But, to be clear, the Ranger cam is no performance upgrade. It's about the same lift and same duration as the stock cam. The only thing it wins you is the roller follower, which *might* free up a hp or two and open up oil options since slider followers are sensitive to that. If you've got a worn cam or lifters, then sure, swap over to a Ranger, but if everything is working properly a Ranger cam is 100% lateral move. Some folks have indicated that it's a step back unless you have an adjustable cam gear and can retard timing four degrees.
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by my8950 »

thesameguy wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:41 pm No need to remove the head to replace the cam... It's done easily in an afternoon.

But, to be clear, the Ranger cam is no performance upgrade. It's about the same lift and same duration as the stock cam. The only thing it wins you is the roller follower, which *might* free up a hp or two and open up oil options since slider followers are sensitive to that. If you've got a worn cam or lifters, then sure, swap over to a Ranger, but if everything is working properly a Ranger cam is 100% lateral move. Some folks have indicated that it's a step back unless you have an adjustable cam gear and can retard timing four degrees.
Correct, lateral, but roller not slider but otherwise the same.
I guess my concern is getting the keeper screw out of the back of the head, and then putting it back in and it staying tight. PZ3 or something screw, so it's not a phillips.
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by thesameguy »

You can use a big Philips to get that screw out, but you can also buy pozidriv bits cheaply. Use a little blue Loctite to put it back in. Not red, and only a dab or it'll never come out again. :)
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by 89Merkur »

Unless it is too late to chime in, if I started from scratch again I would do a good fuel pump, fpr, intercooler and a pimp. Great starting point and the results are better drivability and better performance.
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adamcossie
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Re: Looking for advice for top end build and where to spend my money

Post by adamcossie »

Love the input gang. Definitely steered me in a better direction. I would like to do some of those good upgrades. I bought an Walbro pump, would love to get an intercooler and pimp x but not in the cards now with the $#!* economy in Alberta. One thing lead to the next during the top end build and now I’m in the midst of a full rebuild lol. I was painting the block in car and realized how easy it would be to pull it out and paint it on a stand. Then I figured I might as well toss some rings and bearings in it !! Honed the cylinders. Side note ... anyone have a set of rings for sale? I purchased from jegs end of March but they are back ordered and I can’t do anything without a set. Small window For me to drive the car throughout the year lol.
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